SPEAKER_02: 0:13

Hello and welcome to Let's Talk Procurement, the only show you need to master the art of procurement. Let's go, baby. Hello, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Let's Talk Procurement Podcast. The only place you need to be to get the best, sometimes helpful, sometimes useful procurement information. Everything you need to become king of this industry or queen or whatever else you identify as. So, with me, as always, but not for much longer, is the much beloved and benevolent Luten.

SPEAKER_01: 0:50

Benevolent? Uh if I had to guess what that word meant, I would say I'd say kind and with positive intentions. That is exactly what you meant. Exactly what I meant. Right, right, okay. Um, well I can. And I can be positive. Uh I'm trying to I'm trying to keep my energy up for this one. Um, but you know, as always, it's quite a boring topic. So we're here to uh we're here to freshen it up, freshen up a boring topic for your ear pleasure. Um yeah. We've actually got some uh some fan mail, haven't we?

SPEAKER_02: 1:34

Oh we do, yes. Let's start with that. CEO of segmentation is not announcing the segment, and uh that's what you can expect from us. If I can find the fan mail. We've got some fan mail, yeah. So just while Luke is pulling that one out, um let's recap on how you can get in touch with us. You can email us on two lukes1sip at gmail.com. That's the number two Luke's the number one CIP at gmail.com. You can pop into our Instagram DMs uh like that chap who asked if we could send him some money so we could buy a textbook. Did we do that? No, we offered him a beer map. Yeah, that's pretty um valuable though, isn't it? It is valuable, yeah. I'm even looking to sign it.

SPEAKER_01: 2:23

Yeah, we can I think we can do uh are we at the stage yet where we can do sign-in, signings?

SPEAKER_02: 2:28

We've we've already well I've already signed one beer um by request as well, so I'm kind of proud of that. Uh what's the other thing you can contact us on? The text us button. Yeah. Right there in the description. You see it, you click it, drop us a message, and honestly, we get absolutely buzzing when we see a message come through. Even if it's hate mail, we love it. And what we will do is we will publish it regardless of how ruthless you are. So you will have your message featuring on our website.

SPEAKER_01: 2:58

And our website is website is let's talkprocurement.co.uk. And it's.uk? Yeah. Because I'm a cheapskate. Yeah, no, you've you've achieved value in that purchase. Yeah, made a saving. Made a saving. Yeah, yeah. Um, so we as you say we did get some fan mail, uh, and I would say we will publish the fan mail, whatever you send in. So if you send in your full name, if you send in your phone number because you think we have sexy voices and you want us to ring you, to uh to ring it and you know, I was gonna say put you to sleep, but that sounds quite aggressive. Yeah. What's the word like sing you to sleep?

unknown: 3:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 3:38

Then we can we can also do that on request. So the fan mail that we received from uh Unnamed is hi guys, just wanted to say I really enjoy the podcast. It's a great listen, good laughs, and I've honestly learned a lot more than I expected. Love that, to be fair. I'm at the very start of getting into procurement and wanted to get your opinion. This is the start of our Agni Luke arc, isn't it? Yes. Uh I'm planning to start SIPS level four and study it full time. My background is an undergraduate degree in law, so I've picked up skills around contracts, analysis, negotiation, and stakeholder management. From your experience, what tips would you recommend to someone just starting out and what would you focus on early to actually get a foot in the door? Thanks again, really appreciate the content.

SPEAKER_02: 4:31

There's quite a bit to unpack though, isn't there? Um I'll be I'll be honest, um, the individual said they learned something, so uh I'm proud of that.

SPEAKER_01: 4:40

They learned more than I expected.

SPEAKER_02: 4:42

Yeah, yeah. So zero expectations, and you might you might gain a nugget or two. Um, so yeah, appreciate that. Obviously, thank you. Uh planning to start SIPS level four and study at full time. I I'm gonna be honest, you've got an undergraduate degree in law, um, which tells me you've got some skill sets and competencies, and and actually one of the most challenging things that we see in in the procurement world in in certain procurement jobs, because not every procurement job covers it, is the contract side of things. So actually, um you've probably got skills in in the in the tougher parts of some of the procurement roles that are out there.

SPEAKER_01: 5:19

Agreed, yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_02: 5:20

So, to my mind, that actually puts you probably ahead of a lot of people that would be starting SIPs at the same journey or same level as you.

SPEAKER_01: 5:26

I'm thinking as a as a hiring manager, if someone was going for a role as like a a buyer or a a you know, category manager or something, and they had an undergraduate degree in law, I'd be really impressed straight away. Um hundred percent. And I think obviously you can you can then I I think it's sort of like the procurement tech the procurement procurement skills kind of divided into like contracting, technical stuff, and other stuff like soft skills, negotiation, things like that. And I think, in my opinion, maybe because I'm naturally gifted at uh with soft skills, in my opinion, the technical contracting stuff is harder to do. Yes, I just I definitely agree with that.

SPEAKER_02: 6:13

I think yeah, that what this individual needs to do. I mean, there's a you're right, you get a foot in the door, and then you can go down into whatever kind of area of procurement that you'd like. And I think a lot of a lot of procurement jobs do have that that law element, and often you're working with legal firms or you're working with your legal colleagues to to try and sharpen your skills. And if you like law, then you can focus on that. Whereas if you prefer stakeholder management, analysis, you know, looking at spend data, maybe uh running forecasts and things like that, then that's your other skills which you'll pick up through doing doing your SIPs and probably um just starting out really. So, yeah, a lot. I mean, i if you could let us know your situation, I think that'll be helpful as well. I mean, if you've just graduated, there's definitely some um graduate schemes in procurement that are out there and they'll give you a good good exposure to various sort of um I guess various sort of jobs within within procurement. And yeah, you don't I would say you don't need to rush your SIPs either. That'd probably be my other bit of advice. I don't think you need to have the full SIPs as there's people out there that have got full careers in SIPs that haven't in procurement, sorry, that haven't actually done SIPs at all. So um you've got a good solid background to build a career in procurement, get yourself probably focused on getting a good opportunity at an employer.

SPEAKER_01: 7:35

Yeah, so so the the end part of their message says, uh what tips would you recommend to someone just starting out and what would you focus on early to actually get a foot in the door? I think you know, if if I read that as like they haven't got an a job yet, but they're trying to get an interview or they got an interview and they're wondering what to do, um, procurement cycle, yeah, think about that. Think about how you would you know incorporate procurement-related things into everyday life, like for example, my first interview I did for my apprenticeship. They obviously the interviewing apprentices, people that don't really know a lot about procurement, couldn't do it. I really might have to cut that out. I don't know if it's come across. Um, when I did my first uh procurement apprenticeship, uh I had to do an interview and they asked in there how would you um what what things would you look at when you would be looking to like renew a phone contract? So then because I've done a bit of research before about what procurement was, yeah, I then knew roughly what they wanted to expect. Um I don't think I'd ever actually do the things that I suggested in real life, but yeah, again, at least you're kind of thinking about real life purchases and what you would do to make those more procurement-y. I'm gonna make that a word.

SPEAKER_02: 9:05

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think if you've got an interest in procurement, you probably at one point had an interest in your own spend where you've looked at everything you're spending and how can you how can you make some savings across you know your monthly outgoings or whatever as well, and and try and relate to that. And to to get that foot in the door, I mean you've got a long career ahead of you, right? So just I wouldn't say take the first opportunity that comes your way, but I think I think you're in a good position to get get some opportunities, think of real life examples where you think um you can apply procurement, like like Luke 10 was saying. Um and to be honest, once you've got your first exposure to procurement, you'll you'll find that you'll do 50 different things within that role, and then certain things within that role will take your fancy, and you'll then start going down a rabbit hole to kind of refine your career. Um so procurement cycle is definitely something that's help helpful. So from the from very first like identifying a need, is it something you can make or buy? What's the specification going to be for what you need to acquire? What's the budget? And then and then going to to do a tender, you know, kind of look doing your market evaluation and issuing tenders all the way through to the end of that contract life cycle. Um, and then the other thing is probably just uh the soft skills, the soft skills side of things. So, how would you manage your supplier relationships or your stakeholders? And when people ask you about that, they're probably trying to suss out whether you realise that you know you can you can kind of categorize some of your stakeholders, you can look to prioritize the stakeholders that have a bigger importance or bigger impact on your projects, and then you'll probably spend more time more time with them doing reviews and more structured, um, whereas some of them you might keep at arm's length and just do ad hoc communications with, so just little things like that.

SPEAKER_01: 11:01

Um, yeah, yeah, agreed. I think the one uh the only other final bit of advice that I could offer is the people that you would be interviewing with, probably hopefully gonna be other procurement people. You could just log all yourself and just say that I work I work first month for a fiver. Oh god, and that's something great value saving. Uh and then once you're embedded in the company, you can then demand extra wages.

SPEAKER_02: 11:31

Yeah. You could do that. Interview tips with two Luke's one of the things. Maybe we should do the interview tips actually. If if this listener, and you didn't leave a name, so I'm gonna assign him a name.

SPEAKER_01: 11:43

We'll call him Julie. I was gonna say Jeffrey.

SPEAKER_02: 11:48

Yeah, Jewel Jewelfrey. Jewelfree. Um, yeah, look, thanks for getting in touch, Jewelfrey. Um if you if you are going for interviews or if you've got any questions that you want us to follow up on, uh let us know. Because I'll say we're happy to go into more detail and kind of give you our experiences. We've both had different routes in to procurement, and we've both got lots of colleagues and and kind of contacts in procurement who have all got different experiences and might I had different backgrounds as well.

SPEAKER_01: 12:14

Agreed, yeah. So thanks to Jewel 3 for getting in touch. And if you want to ask us any other questions, then get in touch by the text us function that slides straight into our DMs. Uh that option's in the bottom of every episode. Um all the other option is email, two loops one sip at gmail.com. That's the number two loops plural, the number one cip at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_02: 12:44

Yeah, absolutely is. So while we jump into the next section, I just wanted to compliment you. I think you've got very nice uh glasses today. Okay, where's this going? Um the lenses are very clean. Yeah. And uh what's the name of the other part of the glasses? Uh my face. The uh oh the frames. The frames, yeah. How do you get the uh frames? How do you get the frames to work? See what I'm going with that? Uh like a really terrible link into today's topic. Oh shocking, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 13:28

Uh that was so bad I didn't even understand it. Yeah, we are talking about frameworks today. Um so so I can hear I can hear some of the listeners um asking, asking, well, first of all, they're you know, I'm I'm trying to hear above all the we love you shouting, the bras that are getting thrown and all of that stuff, yeah. Yeah, or the screaming, uh high-pitch screaming, but they are they're asking um what are frameworks? I could I could give an answer. That's a very good question. I uh so I'll I asked AI, and what AI came up with uh was a procurement framework is a structured set of rules, processes, and guidance that organizations use to buy goods and services in a controlled, compliant, and efficient way. Um but what does that actually mean in real real words?

SPEAKER_02: 14:25

And are you I presume we're gonna say frameworks is is slang for framework agreements. Yeah. Is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We should we should refer to it with its full legal title. Because anything structured is technically a framework. Yeah, that is true. You know, you've got yourself dressed today, you're you're a framework of art. That's how it's gonna be. It's gonna be a bit like that, yeah. Um where do you want to start on it then? What is it?

SPEAKER_01: 14:50

Um so I I mean, we just what I said is is uh as usual, just a kind of a bit of corporate wording. Um what that actually means in terms of the way that I've seen them used before is either a company, uh your company that you work for that you're contracting on behalf of, or a different company, like a consortium or a government uh is CCS a government agency? Yeah, commercial services. Yeah, so that's that's the one that I would say I probably use the most frameworks, CCS frameworks. Um what they do is they will kind of set up frameworks for different things, like let's take digital services, for example, they will um vet a load of suppliers, ask them a load of questions, and those, you know, send that kind of list of approved suppliers, I suppose, out to um out to companies in CCS's case, government agencies. Uh there might be a few exceptions on there as to like what companies can use it, but it's generally government agencies for CCS ones. Um and that is basically a pre-approved supplier list that and that those people can go on, and it makes the get the stage of getting from this is what I want to buy to this is what I've contracted for, in theory, a lot quicker because that sort of pre-qualification assessment stuff is already done, right?

SPEAKER_02: 16:26

Yeah. I mean that sounds about right. I think I think the frameworks are it's fair to say that you're doing it for more than a year. Um, they're probably midterm, I'd say you four or five years. Yeah. Sounds about feels about right. And often there's multiple, like you mentioned consortium, but there's often multiple kind of bodies or contracting agencies or or in or individual companies that that can utilize the framework. And you kind of as by by using that framework, you should be able to see benefits from consolidated spend as well with the with the preferred suppliers that are on that list.

SPEAKER_01: 17:07

Absolutely, yeah. Um yeah, and and um if you think about government uh procurement specifically, um there are quite a lot of requirements for uh transparency, fairness, you've got you've got to hit a load of points. And if you weren't to use a framework, you'd have to use what's called an open process. Well, I actually don't I don't really know how specifically it's worded in the new regulations. We'll cover that in another episode. Definitely, yeah. But but back in my day when I was in the public sector, uh we were always recommended to use frameworks because of all that sort of transparency, openness, and um what's the word, like yeah, just the the assessment part of it in terms of is this company a reputable company to work with? Do they have good financial health? Those checks are sort of already done, at least partially, anyway. Um, and the other good thing about frameworks is if you were to do an open process, in theory you could you could have hundreds, thousands of companies that would apply for this work. Um whereas the frameworks are are limited to whatever number that's set up by the the company that um that organises the framework.

SPEAKER_02: 18:33

So that makes sense, and I think what you were maybe going to touch upon is the audit auditability. I don't even know if that's a word, but we like making up words on this uh on this pod. Um in the the the comp the competitive element of it has already been run to cover that framework for a number of years. You then obviously have the ability to compete within the framework suppliers should you want to kind of create a bit more competitive tension. But as a public sector body or as a uh um not-for-profit organization or whatever, you've already got um a number of suppliers that have already been vetted, have already been um proven compliant on the basic checks, the stability, you know, financial stability, yeah, um, ethics, all of that good stuff. So it ticks a lot of the public sector procurement requirements.

SPEAKER_01: 19:27

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 19:28

Without you having to spend more time and money every time you want to go to market.

SPEAKER_01: 19:32

Yeah, and um, so I actually did, I think I might have talked about this already. I actually was part of uh I don't know what the what the phrase is, but I anyway, I did some assessment for CCS, that's why those are the examples that I've been using. Um back when I did work in in public sector, so they were looking for people to um, you know, in the way that attenders run, it was very similar to that. They were looking for experts to um to assess the suppliers' responses to each question. Um I can't remember how many there were. I could probably look it up, um, but it's quite a big CCS framework. Um and I had my I had the social value question. Um so it was a question split into three parts. Uh the suppliers had to answer it, and it was a it was a pass or fail one, which I suppose made it a little bit easier because um for the other questions, like the technical ones, for example, proving that the supplier has enough technical capability to be on uh uh the technical, I think it was like digital services framework or something like that. Um obviously they had to they had to assess that and they had to score that as well for some of the questions.

SPEAKER_02: 20:53

Yeah, that can be quite tough, can't it?

SPEAKER_01: 20:55

So so they all had to, let's say there was three or five um evaluators, they had to agree on a specific score for each supply. You know, one person might say, I think it's a four, another person might say, I think it's a five, I think it's a three.

SPEAKER_02: 21:09

Which is why the um announcement's always delayed, isn't it? They can never agree.

SPEAKER_01: 21:14

Yeah, exactly. But so my question was pass or fail. Um but what it did mean because it was a social value one, is that any supplier that we said you failed this question, they weren't allowed on the framework at all. Oh Jesus, no question. Yeah, so I mean yeah, well, yeah. I do defend it, but yeah. Um and yeah, so we had, we were sort of, we were given this was a couple of years ago now, so I'm trying to cast my mind back. Um we were given all the responses in like an online portal system and told to, you know, go away, put your thought, put your initial thoughts in in the system, don't ask anyone else. Um You know, don't don't let any buyers come into the decision. Um, and yeah, we had to we had to say pass or fail for each of the three sections, and then a few weeks or months later, I can't remember the exact timeline, we came to a consensus meeting. So there was three uh I was one of three evaluators. There was like a chair of the meeting, uh, a minute taker. I think there was probably another person from TCS just like overseeing or or watching or something on hand when they needed to be. Um, and you know, it was quite dunno if I should say interesting. It was it was good to kind of discuss it with the other people. And obviously at that point we've finalised our responses in the system, um, and then the discussion is captured from there. What I found quite um, I don't know, reassuring maybe, is that I was pretty much always in the middle of the other two. Okay. So we had one person that was basically willing to pass most people, yeah. Uh and we had one another person that was probably willing to fail most people. That's probably not to those extremes, but I think that kind of made me feel a little bit reassured because I was like, Okay, I've not gone, I've not gone so crazy far the other day, uh the other one way or the other. Um, and I what I found interesting as well was um, if I can remember what the question was, there was something uh about like it was about social value. One of the parts of the question was about how are you gonna make sure you your company has benefits to the local area of the contract that this contract's gonna be um performed in basically, and all the big companies uh we could well you could tell they were big companies because they put in their response, like you know, standard stuff that you'd expect. Um, there was things around apprentices as well, and there's people things about contributing to like local community projects. In the past, when we did this in this area, we contributed to their youth centre or something, whatever. Um, but then there were genuinely a few suppliers that said really like weird responses, like really short ones, and you think again, this is obviously pass or fail. This determines your you know, you have to pass. You have to pass this one. You know, if you get a low score on the other ones, probably doesn't really matter as much. But there was a company I remember that said, oh yeah, when I go to uh client's offices, I buy a sandwich in the local bakery. It's like what how does that contribute to the local economy? It's like that's incredible. I like that. Like a I assume it was a serious company, actually put that forward in a in a tender response.

SPEAKER_02: 24:46

Tender for a framework, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:47

That's quite a big framework as well. But um, yeah, no, that was my kind of experience.

SPEAKER_02: 24:52

Suppose that's balancing SMEs and not so SMEs, and how do you how do you treat it differently? Because actually a company with like four or five people might not have someone who's got the the understanding of how to respond to these frameworks, but they might actually have the right skills and be a genuine fit for the framework, right?

SPEAKER_01: 25:12

Yeah, yeah, and I think there were quite a few SMEs that did end up getting on the framework, so it wasn't just like a complete anyone who's not you know contributing millions of pounds to here or there doesn't get through, but again, as you say, it's about like how you phrase it and yeah, you know, taking what you've done from other contracts to this might sound controversial, but do you do you think that um engaging SM or adding SMEs to a framework is a bit like um like just a token thing, like where you have to just tick a box to say yeah we've we've we've got this percentage of SMEs. I don't know. I don't think I don't remember there being any pressure to like oh we should we should let this supplier pass because they're an SME. Um there there definitely wasn't any of that, but yeah, I don't know if if it's you know is it a good result for them to say oh yeah our frameworks have this number of SMEs on? I'm sure it is, but yeah, we were independent evaluators and that didn't we were never told to to pass this supply because of them being an SME. That's good to know.

SPEAKER_02: 26:21

I think that's really useful insight actually. I forget that you you've done work. In um get that I'm a young in many topics that we cover. Yeah, big T's. Yeah. In uh in many of the topics that we like to cover, we like to cover like you know, like the cost benefits or the the pros and cons. Do you wanna do you wanna delve into some advantages of a framework?

SPEAKER_01: 26:45

Yeah, well I guess we've we've touched up on a few already.

SPEAKER_02: 26:48

So or cover the drawbacks whichever way you want to.

SPEAKER_01: 26:52

Yeah, um obviously big big advantages for public sector in terms of time taken and still being compliant. Um it's pretty transparent as well. Um and I'd say it's a good it's a good way to make sure you reach the right companies, right? Because you know, you might put an advert out there and it doesn't go to the right people. Whereas this is you know, specifically this framework set up for I don't know, digital consultancy or you know, business analysts, I don't know, I'm just making ones up, but yeah it's set up for that exact thing. So in theory, you know that there will be competent companies that you're gonna invite. Um drawbacks, just uh well, obviously there's time and admin cost to set it up, right? Um if you are gonna be the ones that are doing that. Um you've got the kind of burden as well of maintaining that list. If something comes out about a supplier after the framework's been created, like I don't know, they've worked with kids or they've gone bust or something, right? Then you're gonna have to update that.

SPEAKER_02: 28:09

I think, yeah, and um obviously you're committing for quite a long period of time, aren't you? So if you committed in 2018 to a framework, and then the first year of your framework COVID comes out, and I say it like it's a sum being released, but COVID drops, and um all of a sudden maybe some of your suppliers can't deliver, or you need to update your force majeure clauses, or you know, you you might be stuck on outdated terms or pricing.

SPEAKER_01: 28:38

Yeah. Um I would say the way the way I've seen frameworks used before um is that there's not a commitment. Well, sometimes there is a commitment to respond to a certain percentage of the bids, isn't there? But I would say that's rare, maybe. Yeah. Um so in theory, you could get a load of suppliers that think, oh yeah, I you know, I it's this sounds great, me being on the framework for this. You get 10 suppliers on there, and then when you put a call-off tender out on these frameworks, no one actually applies, or you get one. Yeah. Um so the you know, there still is that risk, that risk doesn't go away.

SPEAKER_02: 29:16

I think the other bit to touch on is the suppliers themselves, maybe. So obviously, for a supply that is successful in getting added to a framework, it's quite a bit of stability, isn't it? It's like in you know, you might you secured basically a position and a pipeline for the next three, four, five years where you have potentially got just a pipeline of constant work for the for that duration, which is pretty good, right? Yeah, yeah, that is pretty good. Although, again, there's not normally a commitment. There's no commitment, but you're in and you're on it, and you've then got the opportunity to to bid and and be in in the camp, basically. But I think the downside to that is the ones who miss out or the ones who don't apply for it or for whatever reason. And you could have a new company that stood up that's at the forefront of artificial intelligence or whatever, and then and then then they're excluded from the framework, so nobody can actually engage them in a timely, approved fashion, right?

SPEAKER_01: 30:18

How would you explain it in football terms like you're you're in the academy, yeah, and you're just waiting for the ball to be crossed in so you can head it in the goal, but you know, it might be a bad cross or you know, you might head it wrong. Yeah, there might be no crossing. Oh, there might be no crossing, yeah. You might try and walk it in.

SPEAKER_02: 30:36

Yeah, but um but it's better to be part of the club than not at all. Yeah. Yeah. Um sounds a bit seedy calling it a club, doesn't it? Because that's like um yeah, procurement's supposed to be fair and transparent, but if you're in a club, you're all good.

SPEAKER_01: 30:50

Um I don't know if this is a a good topic to touch upon. Uh I've heard about dynamic marketplaces. Okay, I've not, so educate, please. Uh a dynamic marketplace uh or dynamic purchasing system, they're sometimes called, um, is it's like a framework, but you can join or leave at any time. Oh, I don't know about leaving, but you can join at any time. Yeah. Um it's it's kind of well, the way I've known it is it's a bit more flexible than that's what dynamic means. Um than the framework. And I think as well, it's kind of like you would use it for well, I actually put it as a recommendation in my SIPS, my final SIPS uh assignment. I said that my company should look to put in place a dynamic marketplace for things that we procure regularly. Sounds sensible, but again, obviously that comes with the other drawbacks we've talked about in terms of setup cost, admin, managing the marketplace as well. Um and I think I think this could be wrong. So probably look it up before the episode comes out, but I think a dynamic marketplace is more for lower value items and a framework is for like big service, significant contracts, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:25

Um I mean you wouldn't do a framework for low-value stuff or low volume.

SPEAKER_01: 32:30

You would no, but you you would still have well, up to a certain value, you still have the competitive requirements of the sector. Yeah. So you need to do something, and whether that's like go out and get three quotes, then yeah. Um yeah. There are there are loads of different maybe we should this should be like a part one of frameworks, is there are loads of different frameworks that you can do in loads of different like ways that they operate, they're not just standard all the same, um the same process basically.

SPEAKER_02: 33:00

I think you go down a bit of a rabbit hole, can't you, as well, especially if you don't start looking at particular frameworks. And what I do like is you can see the suppliers on the frameworks published and open, so it's quite interesting. Um, and a lot of suppliers will say, Oh, we're on this framework, we're on that framework, and they're quite proud of it as well. I think uh that's been informative for me. I'm happy to uh wrap it up there like a burrito, and uh probably see you on the next one if you're still around.

SPEAKER_01: 33:28

Yeah, no, that sounds good. Sound alright. I will uh I'll just um send another thank you to uh what do we say? Jewel free. Jewel free. Um thanks for getting in touch and uh yeah, if you want to if you want to uh pay for loops, what do we say? Loops, the loops beer mat signature um then yeah, get in touch. Only a low low price of uh$59.99. Non-negotiable. Only oh you can negotiate up. Oh yeah. You go negotiate down. We'll do a beer mat framework. BMAT framework, but you can only negotiate up. Yeah. That sounds good. All right, see you later. See you later.